Some Conversations with Christian Church-Go'ers
Conversation with Sally,
a faithful and young church-go'er
One day, while a disciple of Jesus was walking in a park, he was approached by three young people, two young ladies, and a young man, who asked the disciple if he had a few minutes to talk. This was wonderful because the disciple of Jesus was looking for young people to talk to about Jesus. The disciple didn't know it, but the three young people were approaching him to try and get him to believe their religious organization's beliefs about salvation. One of the young ladies names was Sally, and it was she who spoke for the three for she knew their organizations's beliefs and how to present them better than the others.
Jesus’ disciple = JD
| JD | Hi, how are you today! : ) |
| Sally | We are wonderful, how are you? |
| JD | I'm grateful, really grateful. |
| Sally | For what? |
| JD | For my Father's love and care for me. |
| Sally | Oh, well, we are glad you will talk to us for a few minutes. We are here to tell people how they can go to heaven. |
| JD | Oh, great. I am here for a similar reason. |
| Sally | Well, have you ever heard of Jesus Christ? |
| JD | If you mean Jesus of Nazareth, yes, in fact I am a follower of his. |
| Sally | Really. So what is your testimony? |
| JD | (the disciple tells Sally how he met Jesus and how he has learned to follow him more faithfully over the years). |
| Sally | That is wonderful. So, where to you go to church? |
| JD | Well, Sally, Jesus doesn't tell me I should go to church. He tells me to follow him and do what he says. |
| Sally | But we all need fellowship, and the bible does say that we should not forsake gathering together. |
| JD | Yes, Sally, the bible does say that, but Jesus does not, and Jesus is not the bible. Jesus' words on gathering together is that whenever two or three meet in his name, he is there in their midst. |
| Sally | Well, yes but all of the bible is God's Word, isn't it? |
| JD | Jesus is the Word of God, Sally, not the bible. In fact, Jesus warns us against that error in John 5:39-40. The book you are holding in your hands and call the bible is not defined by Jesus, the Son of God. It was defined by men, and in fact there are several different basic bibles - like the protestant and the roman catholic - so which one is correct? |
| Sally | (Sally asks to be excused for a second to talk with her friends. She walks a few feet away and says to them, 'this guy is really messed up with what he believes. Let's just try to give him the gospel.' They agree and all turn back to JD.) Well, would you listen to our gospel? |
| JD | Sure. |
| Sally | OK, first, do you know that you are a sinner who is guilty before God. |
| JD | Well, yes I was once, but don't you remember my telling you how I met Jesus and what he has done for me? |
| Sally | Yes, but I want to make sure you believe the true gospel because you have said some things that are not correct. |
| JD | My sincere efforts to follow Jesus according to his own Words is not enough? Not correct as judged against what? |
| Sally | The bible. |
| JD | Oh, but I don't follow the bible, or believe the bible, or trust in the bible. Jesus didn't either, nor does he tell his followers to. I follow, believe in and trust the person Jesus, who reveals himself in the first four books of the new testament. |
| Sally | Yes, so you have said. |
| JD | Is there anything wrong with my choosing to follow the Jesus who reveals himself in the gospels? |
| Sally | Well, if you don't do it the bible's way, then yes, there is something wrong with it. |
| JD | So then, your ultimate authority is the bible and not Jesus of Nazareth. |
| Sally | Yes, well everything the bible says, Jesus says in the gospels, so they are the same. |
| JD | The bible is the same as the person of Jesus, the Son of God? Isn't that a bit strange? How so? |
| Sally | It's all God's Word...every normal christian believes that. |
| JD | So, where does the bible define itself as God's Word? Where does Jesus prophesy that Paul, for instance, would improve upon what Jesus revealed of his Father, and write it down and that his words would be the Word of God? |
| Sally | 2 Tim. 3:16 says that all Scripture is inspired of God, so all the bible is God's Word. |
| JD | You mean that Paul wrote that, for "the bible" did not write itself. Where does Paul define what the "Scripture" is? Every instance I see Paul talk about the scripture, he is referring to the old covenant with Israel. |
| Sally | Well, Peter says in 2 Pet. 3:16 that Paul's words are scripture. |
| JD | Well, if that is your proof, then who validates Peter's words as scripture or the Word of God? What if Peter is wrong about that? |
| Sally | The church at the counsel of nicea. |
| JD | So what criteria did they use to decide that Peter's writings where scripture or the Word of God? |
| Sally | That is where faith comes in. |
| JD | So, from what you have just plainly said, your faith is in a process of the church to get you to trust in a book, right? Didn't Jesus just say to trust in his Father and himself? When Jesus talks about child-like faith, isn't he talking about faith in his Father, the living Most High God? |
| Sally | Don't you know that all of christianity basically agrees with what I am telling you? Aren't you concerned that you don't believe what christian scholars all say is the truth and the gospel? |
| JD | No, I am primarily concerned with listening to Jesus. I am trying to let Jesus alone define my reality, for Jesus says that HE is the Truth and the Father did say to "listen to HIM". Once again, is Paul also the person of Jesus of Nazareth? |
| Sally | No, but Paul's words are the Words of God, just like Jesus words. |
| JD | So, when Jesus says that "heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORD will never pass away" - what he really meant was, "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words as well as all who claim to speak for me, their words as well will never pass away"? |
| Sally | Well, I guess that would have to be true since all of the bible is God's Word. |
| JD | So then, all of the sayings of Jesus - the sinless Messiah, sent of the Father, who said and did only what he directly saw the Father do and say - his words are no different than Peter's for example? |
| Sally | Well, they are different, but Peter's words are also the Word of God. |
| JD | According to who, Jesus? |
| Sally | No, according to Paul. |
| JD | So then, upon an issue you feel is very important, you are basing your faith on Paul and not Jesus. Doesn't THAT concern you? |
| Sally | No, because every other christian believes the same thing. |
| JD | One more thing on this issue of the bible. If Peter's writing are the infallible Word of God, then aren't you concerned that Paul had to correct Peter about Peter not properly understanding what Paul describes as "the truth of the gospel" in Gal. 2? After all, didn't Peter have the Holy Spirit at the time Paul corrected him? |
| Sally | I don't have the answers to those questions, but I know the gospel. May I continue? |
| JD | Well, OK, you can continue if you'd like. |
| Sally | Did you know that salvation is a free gift that you can do nothing to earn or deserve? |
| JD | Yes, to enter into salvation that is true, but I have to be faithful to Jesus in order to continue on the Way. |
| Sally | (Sally again turns to her companions and says, 'wow, he rejects the once-saved-always-saved doctrine as well!) OK. Did you know that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved? |
| JD | I know that those are Paul's words and I used to believe that, but now Jesus has taught me that you have to do more than say with you mouth that he is your Lord, and more than believe facts about him like his resurrection. Jesus says that if you continue is his Word - and nobody else's - and do what he says, THEN you are his follower and this is what he means when he says to believe in him. Paul's words here are misleading and incomplete. |
| Sally | So, you are saying that you know more than Paul? |
| JD | No, I am saying that I listen to Jesus and not Paul. I am saying that Paul's teachings are not all the same as Jesus' teachings. |
| Sally | (At this point, Sally starts to wonder just a little bit, that what the disciple is saying has the sound of truth to it, but she is not ready to receive it, so she changes the subject.) OK. What about going to church? Are you saying that Jesus says that we should not be a part of a local church? |
| JD | First of all, the word "church" means called out ones. For example, when Jesus says that the gates of hell shall not prevail against his ekklesia, he is saying that the prince of the world shall not prevail against his people. So if any individual is following Jesus, they are part of his ekklesia. Jesus says nothing about buildings or meetings or services or anything of that kind. |
| Sally | Well, just because Jesus doesn't teach it doesn't mean that it is wrong. So, my church and my elders are ordained of God and doing things God's way. |
| JD | Actually, spending relatively large sums of money on a religious temple (some will avoid this truth and instead call their temple a church or a sanctuary or a meeting place) that religious leaders say is necessary to worship God in, is against Jesus teachings. Jesus says that all that is necessary to worship his Father is to do so in spirit and in truth. |
| Sally | OK, but that says nothing about the church building being wrong. |
| JD | Actually, in regard to worship, he did say that "an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father". He obviously was referring to a physical place, and therefore he says that those who follow him will "neither" worship in some house. In addition, Jesus teaches that we ought to sell our possessions and give to the needy, and that would preclude making ourselves comfortable with a tradition of men of spending money on a worship temple. Truly this nullifies Jesus' teachings about how we ought to live. |
| Sally | Well, other than the building thing, everything else we do is biblical. |
| JD | It might be biblical, but so is killing an entire people group, including women and children. |
| Sally | No one in our church would ever do that. |
| JD | But the point is that the bible does say that God ordered the killing of entire people groups, including women and children. Why is it that we cringe and call Herod evil and exceedingly wicked when he orders the killing of all young boys, but when God allegedly orders the killing of women and children of all ages, we maintain that a God that would do such a thing is just and merciful? It is one thing to punish evil doers. It is another to order the killing of children and women. |
| Sally | I just know the bible is true and my church leaders are not wrong. |
| JD | You just now did another thing that contradicts Jesus' teachings. Jesus plainly teaches that those who follow him have one master, teacher, leader, shepherd, pastor, and it is him. And that those who follow him are not to take positions or titles of spiritual authority over other disciples since Jesus is the ONLY authority over his sheep. |
| Sally | Well our leaders don't call themselves anything but brothers. |
| JD | But you just again acknowledged that they are your leaders. Jesus says call no man leader and he teaches that other men ought not to try and lead, direct or otherwise guide his followers, for they are supposed to be following HIM by faith. |
| Sally | Well, the fact that we are out here street preaching means we are doing God's will. |
| JD | But most christian sects do the same thing to varying degrees in varying forms. So do those your religious group label's heretics. In fact, religious groups like the Jehovah's witnesses and the Mormons are very diligent in sending out what they term missionaries and street preachers. According to your leaders, are they doing the will of God? |
| Sally | No, because they don't have the right gospel. |
| JD | So who has the right gospel? |
| Sally | We do. |
| JD | But I have showed you that your gospel does not line up well with Jesus' teachings on salvation. Should not Jesus' Words define the good news that you call your 'gospel'? |
| Sally | We have the Word of God and Paul says that his gospel is the right gospel, and that if any other person brings a different gospel other than what Paul teaches, then that person is accursed of God. |
| JD | Don't you see who you are listening to and thus following? It is Paul, not Jesus, and on a matter that you consider of utmost importance. |
| Sally | No, we are obeying the Word of God, and Paul was the instrument who wrote that portion of the Word of God. |
| JD | Actually, your bible says who is the Word of God, and it is Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:1; Rev. 19:13), not itself, a book that would be compiled some 400 years later. After Messiah came, he is the Word of God and we can be really sure that what he spoke came directly from the Father. We can not be sure of this for any other man. And when a man contradicts Jesus, we ought to be very wary of his other teachings. |
| Sally | Maybe you can't believe the bible due to a lack of faith? |
| JD | Possibly, but I am not concerned that my faith is not in a book, but rather in God and His Son. I did put my faith in the bible for about 10 years before God delivered me from that error. I am concerned about having faith in God and His Son Jesus. The bible is not God or Jesus. It is a book that contains Jesus' Words in a very small portion. |
| Sally | I know our faith is right. Our church group's people love each other and thus we are obeying Jesus. |
| JD | Are you sure you are truly loving each other as God and Jesus define it? Jesus says that if we only love those who love us back, we get no reward or credit for that. He says that the greatest love, that is God's love, will cause us to lay down our life for our friends. That is a great sacrifice - we are to be willing to give our very life in order to help a friend. Are you sure that those in your religious group are willing to actually DO that? |
| Sally | Oh yes, Jesus says it and thus we will do it. |
| JD | So how is your group currently showing their sacrificial, selfless love for one another? |
| Sally | We are kind to each other, and we say nice things to each other, and we visit each other's homes and cook meals for each other each weekend. |
| JD | So, what happens when an older person is sick, or when someone loses a job? Related to those questions, do you have people who have much more wealth than other people in your group? |
| Sally | Well, their relatives take care of them or send them to a nursing home. If someone loses a job, there is unemployment, and we have even set up a room in the basement of our church where someone can stay for up to 3 months. In terms of people with different incomes, that is nobody's business but their own. |
| JD | By these words you prove that you and the people you associate with don't yet understand Jesus, his gospel or his Father's love. How sad. The world as usual...business as usual. |
| Sally | What do you mean? |
| JD | Read Jesus' Words in Luke 12:33-34 and Matt. 25:32-46 with ears to hear. |
| Sally | I've read the new testament dozens of times. |
| JD | Yes Sally, you have, but you have not yet begun to seriously listen to Jesus as you continue to cling to the traditions of men which nullify the Word of God's teachings. |
| Sally | Well, even if I believe what you say, I will continue to love those people in my church and I can't do that if I leave them. |
| JD | Please, don't believe what I say, believe what Jesus says. It is good to love all people, but you can't do that well and at the same time disobey Jesus. Why not go and try to love people that are willing to try to obey Jesus and who see their need for God? You know, the same people Jesus reached out to...the rejected, hurting people the world - including its religious organizations - label as failures? |
| Sally | We do that with our Saturday night soup kitchen. |
| JD | No, you feed the poor which is good, but you do so with your excess and in a non-personal way and you point them to christian religion instead of to Jesus. This far outweighs the good you do in feeding them physical food. |
| Sally | Well, I can see you are not going to respond to the gospel, and we have to be going now. Good-bye. |
| JD | Well, it was good talking with you. Please take this little pamphlet with our web site address and read a few of the articles. |
Sally and her two friends take the piece of paper and walk away from the disciple of Jesus, shaking their heads and marveling at the wrong beliefs of the disciple of Jesus. And yet the youngest one, in her heart, was moved to some extent by the Truth of Jesus. Sally, for her part, gave the piece of paper to her religious leaders. The main religious leader read the pamphlet and visited the web site. The next Sunday, when her shepherd saw her after their "worship service", he warned her about the fellow who handed her the pamphlet and strictly warned her to not read the web site and to stay away from "such a reprobate heretic".
Conversation 1:
One day, while standing on a sidewalk, a disciple of Jesus has a conversation with a church-goer…
Jesus’ disciple = JD
Church-Goer = CG
|
JD |
Hi, how are you today? |
|
CG |
Oh, I’m great, how are you? |
|
JD |
Oh, I’m grateful to the real Jesus! |
|
CG |
I saw your bumper sticker…I assume you are a christian? |
|
JD |
Well, actually, that label seems to have lost its meaning, so I prefer a follower of Jesus, because Jesus does say we must follow Him… |
|
CG |
So, which church do you belong to? |
|
JD |
I just follow Jesus, for Jesus says we are the church |
|
CG |
Yeah, I know that, but where do you go to church? You know, Sunday mornings where do you go? |
|
JD |
We don’t go anywhere in particular Sunday morning, we just read Jesus words from time to time. |
|
CG |
Oh, you have a house church? |
|
JD |
Well, since we are the church and we meet in our house, I guess you could call it that. But really, we are trying to be what Jesus says we ought to be, His Family. |
|
CG |
Well, what is your pastor’s name? |
|
JD |
Jesus of Nazareth. |
|
CG |
Yeah, I know that, but really, you do have a leader or leaders called pastors, don’t you? I mean you are not saying that Jesus physically manifests Himself in your house, are you? |
|
JD |
No, Jesus does not physically sit on our house, but we do try to actually be led by Him, for He does say that He is the One shepherd. And we do have His words in the gospels. He also says that His disciples are not to exercise authority over one another since He says we are all truly brothers. He also says that part of that true humility manifests itself in not taking titles of spiritual authority over one another. Don’t you think “pastor” qualifies as a title of spiritual authority, and that the man receiving that title either tries to get, or allows, the people to follow him? |
|
CG |
Wow, you sound pretty weird. Are you saying that men who take the title “pastor” are wrong for doing so? |
|
JD |
No, I am saying that Jesus says that in Matt. 23:8-12. Why don’t you agree with Jesus? |
|
CG |
So, you guys don’t meet at a church, and you don’t have any proper leaders, is that right? |
|
JD |
Why isn’t Jesus a proper leader? |
|
CG |
Man, you sound like you are involved with a cult or something… |
The church-goer walks away from the disciple of Jesus, muttering under his breath a warning about cults…
Conversation 2:
One day, while visiting a state fair, a disciple of Jesus starts talking to a church-goer…
|
DJ |
Praise the Lord, a beautiful day, isn’t it? |
|
CG |
Well, yes, it is! |
|
DJ |
So, what is going on with your spiritual life? |
|
CG |
Well, I admit that I am not spending much time with my family, or reading the bible, because I am so busy with the business. |
|
DJ |
So, perhaps there is something more than what you have been taught, or experienced, in the religious buildings? |
|
CG |
What do you mean? |
|
DJ |
Well, maybe following Jesus does not require our going to religious buildings that are called “churches”. Maybe it is about our giving our lives to Him and living as He commands? |
|
CG |
Well, I think I’ve been doing that, but I admit that I don’t spend much time right now going to church or reading the bible. |
|
DJ |
Well, why not do what Jesus says, which is to forsake all and follow Him? We invite you to do so with us. We know that God’s blessing will be upon us as we obey the plain words of His Son. |
|
CG |
Well, that sounds really radical. I am providing for my family well right now, so what are you proposing, that I leave my family? |
|
DJ |
No, we are proposing that you all come and follow Jesus with us - you and your natural family. |
|
CG |
My wife would never go for that. Plus how would my children be educated? And what about health insurance? I mean, how would we eat each day? |
|
DJ |
By faith. Don’t you believe Jesus when He says His Father will provide for our food, clothing and shelter? In terms of educating our children, we are home schooling, and it would just get easier if more people would join us. |
|
CG |
I hear what you guys are saying, but I am very concerned about your view of things. You sound just like David Koresh and other cult leaders I have heard about. |
|
DJ |
We are not asking you to follow us. We are asking you to obey Jesus and follow Him with us. There is a big difference, isn’t there? |
|
CG |
Well, I think I’ll just concentrate on my walk with the Lord, and I think it is good that if you guys feel led to test your faith in that way, then go for it. |
|
DJ |
But we are not saying this is a relative thing for each to choose. We are simply trying to repeat Jesus' teaching to you, so that you might also seek Him with all your heart and try to obey. |
|
CG |
I do seek Him, and I do obey. Just because I don't want to go into a cult does not mean that I am not a christian. |
|
DJ |
But you earlier kind of admitted that you are not willing to try to forsake all to follow Him, didn't you? Jesus does command us to do that, doesn't He? |
|
CG |
Yeah, according to your interpretation. There are hundreds of interpretations of the bible, and I know a lot of guys who go to seminary who do not interpret it the way you do. Did you go to seminary? |
|
DJ |
For a short time until the Lord called me out. I have come to know that Jesus does not want scholars, but those with child-like faith for disciples. |
|
CG |
Don’t you think maybe you are excusing your lack of proper biblical education in order to push a 'personal interpretation'. |
|
DJ |
Well, I suppose that is possible. But let's read His words and you can judge. See, He says right here, "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple." How do you interpret that? |
|
CG |
You guys are on dangerous ground… |
The church-goer turns his back on the disciples of Jesus, and uses as his excuse to cut them off, starting a discussion with some potential customers that walked by.
Conversation 3:
One day, in a parking lot waiting for a shipping store to open, a disciple of Jesus starts talking to a church-goer. The conversation goes something like this:
|
CG |
Hi, I saw the web-site on your car. Are you the minister who owns that site? |
|
DJ |
Hi, well, I am the person who created the web site. |
|
CG |
Are you a Christian? |
|
DJ |
I prefer a disciple or follower of Jesus, because that's what he called his followers and the label “Christian” seems to have lost its meaning. |
|
CG |
Oh, do you mean you are part of the disciples of Christ denomination? |
|
DJ |
No, I am not a part of any denomination. That is what Jesus called His followers in the gospels. |
|
CG |
So, who do you assemble with? You do meet with others, right? |
|
DJ |
We meet with a few others, yes. |
|
CG |
Where do you assemble? Where is your meeting place? |
|
DJ |
In our house? |
|
CG |
Oh, that’s nice. How big is your assembly? |
|
DJ |
Quite small. |
|
CG |
How many elders do you have? |
|
DJ |
Well, not too many older people are with us right now. |
|
CG |
No, I mean spiritual leaders, like pastors, elders and the like. |
|
DJ |
Well, we try to let Jesus be our only leader, while we follow Him together. |
|
CG |
But the bible does say that God gave some to be pastors, doesn’t it? Paul does give much instruction regarding elders, doesn’t he? |
|
DJ |
Well, yes, Paul does say that, but we are not following Paul, but Jesus. I am just saying that we do what He calls us to do, without all the titles and formal authority. We try to focus on following Jesus, loving one another, and trying to make disciples. |
|
CG |
Oh, I heard of groups like you before. |
|
DJ |
What do you mean? |
|
CG |
There a lot of little cult-like groups like yours who deny proper biblical authority. |
|
DJ |
Don’t you believe that we shouldn’t judge others so quickly? What have I said that isn’t Scriptural? |
|
CG |
I just know that there has to be some person or persons leading the church, and without that, I believe you are a cult. |
|
DJ |
So, your definition of a cult is a group of people trying to follow Jesus only, without human’s in between Jesus and themselves? |
|
CG |
I’m saying that if you don’t have proper, biblical authority, like pastors or elders, then you are not doing thing’s biblically, and therefore you are a cult. |
|
DJ |
But Jesus doesn’t talk about any authority being in-between He and His disciples. He calls us to follow Him together, as brothers and sisters. |
|
CG |
Yeah, well, you do believe that the whole Bible is inspired of God, don’t you? Can you just throw away the apostle Paul’s teachings? |
|
DJ |
Well, if we find a contradiction between Paul and Jesus, we are going to follow Jesus… |
|
CG |
Oh, forget it…just another cult who denies the doctrine of inspiration… |
The church-goer walks away in disgust…
Conversation 4:
A woman disciple of Jesus has an encounter in a thrift shop with an older christian woman. After browsing the store, and getting ready to leave, the DJ says...
| DJ | Trust and obey Jesus :) |
| CG | Excuse me? |
| DJ | I said trust and obey Jesus...do you know who Jesus is? |
| CG | That is against the law...you are soliciting. |
| DJ | It is not against the law. I can say anything I want...you know, freedom of speech. And even if it was against the law, Jesus tells me to tell others about Him, so I'm going to do what He tells me to do. |
| CG | You should be locked up in a mental hospital. Call the police, its against the law. |
| DJ | Locked up for what? Telling people about Jesus? Go ahead and call the police. |
| CG | It's against the law! |
| DJ | Well, one day you will stand before God and give an account... |
| CG | I am an upstanding member of my church! |
| DJ | Oh, then why do you object to me telling people about Jesus? |
| CG | It's against the law! |
| DJ | Well, throw me in jail if you want but I'm going to listen to Him and tell others about Him. Why don't you read His words and find out for yourself what He says? |
| CG | You should be put in a mental institution. |
| DJ | I'm sorry to say maam, but one day you will stand before Him and give an account. |
The disciple of Jesus leaves the thrift store, marveling at the christian woman's words.
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